Open Wounds And Holiday Triggers

Grief doesn’t just live in the mind; it echoes through the body, the calendar, and the objects we keep. We open up about what holidays feel like when gratitude rings hollow, how traditions can cut like glass, and why making new rituals—planting a tree, choosing a favorite dessert, shrinking plans to match your energy—can turn survival into gentler remembrance. From panic on New Year’s to tears set off by a random song, we dig into how triggers work and why fighting them often hurts more than feeling them.

We also get honest about milestones and the ache of joy without the person you want beside you—boot camp graduations, family weddings, new babies, and the quiet wish to make one more phone call. Along the way, we tackle the surprising power of things: a round pedestal dining table that once symbolized a shared life became an obstacle after loss. Moving it out wasn’t erasing love; it was reclaiming space for who we are now. The same goes for bins of belongings slowly pared down over time. They are not in the things, and keeping becomes care until keeping starts to wound.

What helps when the stitches rip for a minute? Triage. Sometimes you sit and sob. Sometimes you garden. Sometimes you turn off a show, write down a memory, or breathe until the wave passes. We don’t pretend there’s a neat timeline. The wound can reopen at your lowest lows and highest highs, and that doesn’t mean you’re failing. It means you loved well. There is room for both—joy and sorrow, hope and hurt—and each small glimmer counts.

If this conversation leaves you feeling seen, share it with someone who might need it. Subscribe for more honest talks about grief, healing, and the messy, beautiful work of carrying love forward. Your reviews help others find this space—leave one and tell us what resonated most.

Transcript

Setting The Space For Grief

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hi, welcome to Your Friend in Grief, a podcast for anyone learning who they are after loss. I'm Melinda and I'm here with Milani, and we're so grateful you're here.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

We've created a space where grief is honored, where your healing is never rushed, and where your heart is allowed to feel everything it feels.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Welcome. It's good to see you.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Hello, friend.

Holidays As Open Wounds

SPEAKER_02 0:24

How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. Um, so our category today, we're gonna jump right in, is called Grief Waves and the Body. Yeah, I know it's a little heavy. Hopefully we'll hopefully we will fare a little better. Uh see what the category, the topic is actually going to be. Ohund. I'm learn I'm learning how to read backwards.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Oh, look at that. You have so many skills.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Open wound, wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Um it's probably relevant for this time of the year.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

With the holidays.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Absolutely with the holidays. Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah, that actually, if we kind of talk through that, I um Mike died in July. I was living with friends. Obviously, Thanksgiving came around. And the person I was living with really wanted to like do something nice and make a nice meal and just spend time together, right? And I couldn't do it. I I wasn't capable. I had I I had no bandwidth for it. It was still so fresh and so open. I had just moved out of my house in September, so we had just sold the house. And I couldn't do it. And I was angry. And I was just like, no, you can't make me celebrate Thanksgiving. And it was, I could never explain to them why. Like they they didn't understand it. And I think part of that anger and part of that digging my heels in was just like, no, I'm not doing this. I have, I cannot think about having Thanksgiving and celebrating Thanksgiving or Christmas without him here. And I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

So Thanksgiving, you know, where there's um this increased emphasis on gratitude and the the things that you are thankful for, and it's it's hard to dig deep and pull from that reserve for something like that when you don't feel very thankful at the moment because it's still so fresh.

Letting Go Of Traditions

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That was just like never gonna happen. Um, I just I couldn't do it. I couldn't, and I, you know, the holidays have changed for me. Sure. I I don't I don't revere them like I did. Um, and and you know, that could change over time. I'm certainly better about it. I I get a little festive here and there, not not constantly, but sometimes. Um, and that's okay. It's really okay. Um, you know, I don't have traditions anymore. I don't have those Christmas traditions that we used to have, or you know, the holida Thanksgiving traditions that we used to do. So I don't I I just don't put weight on that any longer. Right. It is now it's it's like a couple days off for me to take and read and sp I do spend time with friends on those, you know, holidays, but it's only taking me till this last year. This was like the this last Thanksgiving, not this one, but the one prior, 24, was the first Thanksgiving I actually did spend with friends and and did it willingly. Right. Um, and that was it was still hard. It was still hard. Um but it was it was good, right? It was it was good. But I think the opened wound and around the holidays is just it's so raw. And it's it is I get that way around his birthday as well. And Mike died on July 6th, and I'll just tell you, and I'm gonna tell you in very explicit words, I don't give a flying fuck about the Fourth of July ever again.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Because the days leading up to it are harder. And even though I don't want to celebrate that day or acknowledge that day, it still comes through. Oh, it's the 4th of July, woo, woo! And it's like, yep, yep, it is. Even five and a half years. I just don't care. And I'm really okay to do my thing at home with the babies, the cats, and do my own thing and make my own. I I do more around his birthday rather than like I'll acknowledge his birthday, but like the 4th of July, I just want it to go away. Still, even after five and a half years. So with that, that date is still very raw for me.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

How about you?

SPEAKER_03 5:54

I did I don't know those. Um I had a hard time sticking to what our traditions were because sticking to to the tradition with when you're feeling the absence of somebody that you love who's gone just kind of for us felt like it feels worse. It feels terrible because they're not here. And you know, um like I I remember after Evan died, like that first Christmas after, like, were we supposed to hang his stocking or not? Right? Were we supposed to put up any ornaments that had his name on it or ones that he had made in school or not? You know, like it it just it felt weird, it felt funky. I don't know why. We couldn't really, but it for us, for our family, it felt more like feeling the absence. So what we did instead was we made new traditions, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Because it was hard to follow the traditions that we had been doing, you know. Yeah. Um, and then with Dennis, we had already been a couple of years without a Christmas tree. So for us, it didn't feel like, oh, we didn't even put up a tree this year, you know, because we had already kind of gotten past that. And our holidays were about spending family time and making a nice meal together and doing things like baking cookies and stuff like that. And um, Jackson has never really been like a present kind of kid. He like to him, it's it's more valuable to have time to spend together, right? Um so yeah, it it and each loss is different, right? Um, so we did handle it differently after losing Dennis than we did after losing Evan. Um, and a lot of our new traditions that we had come up with, actually, Dennis helped us come up with. Like we would always feel so sad on Evan's birthday. And um Dennis started a tradition where we would go to a nursery and we would find a shrub or a tree and we would plant that in honor of Evan.

New Rituals To Honor Loved Ones

SPEAKER_02 8:28

I love that, and I love the fact that Dennis started that with the tree at the school. Like I love that. And when you were saying that, I was wondering like if Jackson's values of time with family, because he didn't know Evan. Right, if that's born out of how Dennis helped you, you know, s honor Evan, that it was those traditions that kind of helped shape Jackson.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

You know, it very well could have been because as we know, we we change, right, after we have a significant loss. And um definitely one thing that changed for our family was there wasn't a lot of importance on material things anymore. It was really more about the things that money can't buy, right? And so I I would think with in that respect, we probably raised Jackson differently than I did the other two.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Oh, yes, it it is very possible that that's where that came from for Jackson.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

But that's a lovely thing. And I love that Dennis continued to be like, let's go get a shrub or a plant or something, and and plant he's really he really just kind of reinforced that whole new life.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

I love that. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

And he always would say, um, I I could decide, but whatever it is that we did, he would want us to pick something that we thought um Evan would enjoy doing. So, like one year we went to a water park, and one year we went and got ice cream, you know. So it was Nathan and I would talk about it and then we would decide what we were gonna do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

I love that. I love that. And I think, you know, when it first happens, it is absolutely an open, raw wound, right? It is totally, and I think over time it it kind of heals over, just like any open wound doesn't mean it ever goes away. We know that it doesn't go away. Um, we just carry it differently. We learn how to to live with the wound, right? And um, yeah, I think that that's an incredible way to remember them. And but yeah, the holidays are tough. And the well, the first New Year's, right around New Year's, um, I sent myself to the hospital with heart palpitations. That was fun. Oh my. Um, that was anxiety. That, you know, we're we're talking about an open wound and and kind of grief in the body, so this isn't completely on topic, but that was my first like kind of New Year's Eve. Um, I was heavily doped up on Atavan. And um, the second New Year's Eve, I was in my home and I didn't want to do anything. I had invitations. I didn't want to do anything. And my, I mean, a lot of people don't stay up till midnight on New Year's, right? We hadn't been staying up till midnight on New Year's for many years, whatever, um, unless we had people over or whatever. But um I just listened to music that we liked in my in my new home, finally feeling safe and settled. I'd been in here for about five months, and it was just one of those things where it was like that was kind of a new thing. It was like, let's just listen to music and just, you know, kind of cried my heart out. Right. And I I think there's times for that when you have to kind of reopen that wound to get through that process, to get through a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Um, are we going along just thinking I'm doing good, right? Like I'm not really feeling I'm not stuck thinking about anything, and I'm not really feeling um the yearning, or I'm not feeling sad about anything, and then I will hear about somebody who died, or um and and it could be like nobody I even know, right? And it takes me back to the early days, and the wound is open again.

The Body Remembers: Anxiety And Triggers

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah, and it's very funny because you know, the mind does a lot of things when you're grieving, even even when you're good, you know, you're better, not you mean it's never good, but five and a half years out, I am much better at handling it than I was when Mike first died. And I can't remember now, but I told you recently there was a TV show that I was watching, and it brought me to tears. And I can't even remember what show it was now. I can't remember for the life of me.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

It's like wasn't it wasn't it Taylor Swift? I thought it was like a about one of her lead dancers.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Oh, it was. It was watching the documentary docuseries that just came out, watching the um watching Cam and his mom and how much she sacrificed for him. I was just in tears. But there was also a television show. Hello, Stella. Hello, this is Stella. I have three of these little furballs, and this is the second one you've seen. Um, there was also a T another TV show that I had watched, and I can't remember what it was, but it just like brought me to tears. And it was I'll I'll think of it later, of course. But I think the mind blocks those things out.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

It's probably the body's way of protecting.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. And but it is like I hadn't cried about Mike or anything, but watching something it was about like family or a spouse or something, and it just triggered me. It just and it's just comes out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

It does. I those are probably more surprising than anything, like when they hit you out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Not that there needs to be a reason because there just doesn't, you know, there doesn't there doesn't even have to be a trigger. Um sometimes it just hits you out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Yeah. And it's not it's not anything that you expect. And because you think you're doing fine, it's just that anguish just comes out of nowhere. And it's like the body remembers.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Yes, and it's just both completely remembers. Or I find when um we have an event and I and I wish one of them were there, like when Jackson graduated from boot camp. I I wish so badly that Dennis could have been there to see that. I wish so badly for Jackson that his dad could have been there to be proud of him and witness that. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Yeah. Mike, um, and I've thought about that a lot in the last year because um Mike and I were close to his cousins, and his cousins' kids are now married. Um and being at those weddings, it was so hard. I was so happy to be there, but just sad. But sad that he wasn't there to see these kids that he loved starting their lives. Right. And one of them has a little baby now. And Mike would absolutely love that for them. And so those things, you know, it's it you're right, it is those milestones, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:12

It's those absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yeah. I mean, I don't have kids, so I don't have kid milestones, but I have, you know, the things with family.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Certainly, there are things kids are not. There are always going to be these events that you wish they could be there for, you know, or these milestones, or you know, like um maybe when you're not feeling well one day and you say, Oh man, I wish you were here to help take care of me.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Or right, because that was a comfort, right? That was like that was when I was sick, he would be like so incredible for me. Um honestly, you and I have joked, and this is not a technical term or a medical term, but you and I both believe Toby has catheimers. Yes. And I really wish Mike could be here to help me work through that with him to try to comfort him because I don't know how else to comfort him. Right. And it's not to the point where we need to do anything, but I just want to make him comfortable and make sure he has the best life possible.

SPEAKER_04 17:15

Right.

Milestones Without Them

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Um, but when he like comes into the kitchen and meows at me for no reason, it's those moments where it's like, oh yeah. I miss your calming presence. I miss all the amazing things about him where he would be like, hon, it's okay. We got this. Right. Um, you know, and that's those are the types of things that I think tug at that wound. Yes. Um when I have really bad, if I've had a really bad day at work, if I've had a really great day at work, right? Like he's and it hasn't happened maybe in the last six months, but before that, I still had moments where something great would happen and I would start to reach. And it took me a minute to remember that I can't call him and tell him about this.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

I'm still doing that with my sister. I can't We lost my sister two months after we lost Evan. And um anytime something happens with the kid would happen with the kids, she'd be the first person that I would call. Right. And I am still having to resist picking up the phone to call her.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Where I have that moment where I go, I can't I can't call her.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Right. Right. And that's I mean, it and it's those kinds of things when you're when you're going about your day and you're carrying your grief like the vest and you're carrying it, and you're you think you're like, we're trucking, we are doing all the things, we're surviving. We're not just surviving, we're actually making progress, we're doing good things. We're we're feeling different in our body, we're feeling different.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

Are you feeling funky about saying thriving?

SPEAKER_02 19:06

A little bit. Because it's not, yeah. It's I don't know how to I don't know how to express it in another way. Like I guess it's just moving forward. Um, but when you're moving forward and out of left field comes a ball and just hits you in the head of like, whack, your person's gone. Right. And that's I think the most jarring of all the things.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

It is. It is. Um but I don't I'm not sure that that's ever gonna change. I don't think it is. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I what I do think is important is um how do you tend to the wound?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah. How do you tend to it?

SPEAKER_03 20:00

I get busy, right? And I know everybody laughs at me because I don't sit still. There it for me, I I I work off that energy of the wound of feeling that by getting busy. And either I'm in the garden or I'm working on a project in the house. Yeah. That helps me.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

For me, I have to sit with it. I have to let it sort of, I have to honor it. I have to engulf it. I have to like let it engulf me. And I have to miss him. And I have to acknowledge that. And I think that that's a big part of my processing where I can't just lie to myself or pretend. Like for me, like I can't just ignore it. I have, for some reason, I'm just like, you gotta face this. Like, you gotta do this. Like, if you're gonna be in bed all day, that's fine. But you gotta acknowledge all of this. And you, you know, tomorrow you gotta get up. It's like I allow myself the space, but then the next day I get up and I'm back at it forward. But I allow myself that day or that afternoon or that whatever, the weekend, or whatever it is that I feel like I need. Um, and I think some of that comes from the energy of having to do everything.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

And so some of that could just be some of that exhaustion of like, I'm exhausted from doing all the things. And then that hits you, and you're just like, no.

unknown 21:35

No.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

There's a huge physical component to to grief. People don't realize it is absolutely exhausting. Emotions are exhausting. Um, and I I think it takes more energy to fight the feels than it does to feel the feels. And I I always tell people, like, lean into it, feel it. Don't fight it. If you have to cry, cry. If you need to be quiet, be quiet. If you need to yell, then yell. Yeah. You know, like whatever you need to do to feel the feels, feel them. Right. Because fighting them is it is worse.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yes, a thousand percent worse. A thousand percent worse. And I definitely think that that leaning into them is is something that helps you carry it better. Yes, it just helps you carry it better. And I know that even though you get busy and you do those things, you have your moments too.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

I do.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

You have you have moments when you don't.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

But also while I'm busy, I am I am communicating, I am talking to them, I am visiting with them, I am honoring the wound. I am it's my time with them.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

Right?

SPEAKER_02 22:50

I love that for you.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Um, and then if I can pull something productive out of it, even better.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

But I love that you do that, right? That you take that as a sign that you need to feel close to them again, that you have to communicate with them. Um, you know, I tend to communicate with Mike out of when things are when there's something I I, you know, I hear him in my head. Um, at some points when things are silly, or there's just something I just hear his voice in my head, and I know that he's with me, and I'm like, you know, it's just a funny thing, and sometimes it makes me laugh, and sometimes it's like, oh yeah, I know.

unknown 23:34

Damn it.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

And but I think those moments and those times are important for us to honor. Absolutely. So that we can feel them and then take the step forward again, right? But I love that you that you take that time when you're having those moments to to really sort of be connected to them.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

And that I love how you do it because I feel like you're so much better to yourself. Like I will just go until I'm like I will say to you, I'm exhausted. And you will mean I'm lazy. No. No, it means you're nicer to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

I will, you know, but I have moments like you do. And you've seen them recently because I'm like, sure, I want to sit and read, and then I do a thousand other things. So I do think that is something subconsciously that I'm doing to avoid something else.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

You know, sometimes. But yeah, I mean, you know, we all have to learn how to be better to ourselves, right? And next time you're here, we'll do more of that chilling out.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Will we?

SPEAKER_03 24:56

I hope so. No, because I I you got a couple of closets that I'm excited to get into.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

God.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and and that's you know, that's an interesting thing uh to kind of talk about. You know, sometimes open wounds can be things.

unknown 25:21

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Um just a little backstory here. Milani and I met um three years ago. I think it was three years ago. Three years ago, on Mike's birthday. And uh we had not met in person, FaceTime every day, all talking, all the things, but we hadn't met until September of 2025, October of 2025. And she came and stayed with me for nine days. Nine days. Never met this woman in person. Nine days. And it felt like two. It was so good. It went by so fast, and it felt like a weekend. It just did not feel like nine days.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

It was so good.

Objects As Pain Points

SPEAKER_02 26:05

It was so good. And can't wait to do it again, although I feel like I need to tackle those closets before you get here. But when I first when I first moved into my house, it was a year to the date of Mike's service, is when I closed out my house. And um, I had stuff in storage, I had stuff in my apartment, and I didn't take any time off work when I moved into my house. Now, normally I would have taken time off work, but for some reason I didn't take time off work, right? So I basically threw shit in cupboards and places or in my garage to just feel normal again, right? Well, since then, I work full-time and then I started a business and now I started a podcast, and like I haven't really spent time of like, hey, let's take a week off and let's like reorganize the house. Who wants to do that? Right? So I take nine days off with Milani. We're she's here for nine days. The morning after she gets here. She's pulling shit out of my cabinets. Like before I'm like barely awake and had coffee. She's pulling shit out of it. She's like, Do you really need this? This is just really disorganized. And Milani's an energy woman, right? She feeds off good energy. And if it's bad energy, if the cheese bad, man, she is gonna fix it. She's like, nope, this is not how it needs to be. And I can't tell you how much I love this about her. But one of the things that I had done is I had started this business in my house and I had this huge round dining room table. And I know this is a long story, but I promise there's a point to it. This dining room table was an open wound for me. When Mike and I built, when Mike and I bought the townhouse, we completely remodeled it. The dining room, we it was a square dining room. And Mike had a couple of requirements when we got a dining room table. He's like, I want a pedestal dining room table. I don't want legs because he was tall and his legs would always get tangled up in the legs, and he's like, that pisses me off, so I don't want that. I want a pedestal table and I want a round one so I can play poker and have my friends over and play poker. I'm like, great. We had beautiful floor-to-ceiling drapes. It was a really tall ceiling house. We had beautiful drapes. We picked out this beautiful chandelier. It was a circle. Like the dining room was my favorite room in the house. It was just, we put it together perfectly. We did it together. It was amazing. And the dining room table that we found, Mike was very um, he was a CPA, so he was very money conscious. And I made him spend a lot of money on this table. It was a couple thousand dollars. And he was like, I am not paying two grand for a table. And I'm like, this is the only one. You want a pedestal, it's nice, it's round, it's big enough. You can have all your we can have all our friends over and play poker. It's perfect. He's like, all right, but we're not buying the chairs to go with it. We're gonna cheap out on the chairs. I'm like, fine, I just want the table. That dining room table did not fit in my little tiny 16 square, 1,600 square foot house. It did not fit here. And every time I thought about getting rid of it, I was like, but I fought for that table so much. I fought for it. Like it was tied to that connection with Mike of that fighting for that table. Like I I gave him all my arguments and I finally wore him down, right? I like won that argument. And Milani and I talked about it, and we both cried at the dining room table, and then we took that fucker apart and we moved it into the garage. And immediately the energy in the house felt better. But that table was an open wound that was keeping me from moving forward and making, and my house has such good energy now. I have the space to do all the things that I want to do in it, but it was the last piece of furniture, really, that was from my past, and it was causing more pain than it was helping. And I recently sold it and it went to a lovely family, and honestly, I never thought twice about it once we moved it out of the house. Right. I never thought about it again, and I think it took things take me a while to get used to. I have to process them. That's just who I am. You know that about me. And honestly, that getting that table out of here was like the most amazing thing for me, but it was an absolute open wound.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

What got you to the point where you could move it out?

Learning To Release What Hurts

SPEAKER_02 31:04

I was starting to prioritize the space that I wanted for my business. I wanted to have a living and a work space, and it wasn't meeting my needs. And it was becoming harder and harder to do the things I wanted to do with that table because it was round, it was this gigantic albatross, right? And it just didn't fit, it just didn't fit anymore. And I think that was what really pushed it was I was finally starting to feel better about things and wanted something new for myself and something different for myself, and that's where that push-pull came in. And it wasn't until you were here that I could actually verbalize those things and actually go, Oh, it's gotta go. It's gotta go. Let's just do it. Right. Let's just do it. And I mean, I could not be happier with that space now. And in fact, it's got great flow. It's got great flow. And I still I'm it's not perfect. I think I want to change some stuff around in as in what is kept in there. I think I want to keep, I think I want to move what's in there and move those to shelves and put the other stuff behind me into those because it'll be easier access for me. And but the flow is so much better, and I have a living space and I have a workspace, and it feels it's mine now, right? I took mine back, and that's something that you don't think about, but I was hanging onto that table like for dear life. And once I got it out of my house, I was like, oh, well, I don't miss the table. It wasn't the table, it was the all the connection to Mike and the you know, the going back and forth and the arguing about, well, I'll buy you the expensive table, but we're gonna buy the cheap ass chairs.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Right. Right. And and you, as we know, the connection doesn't go away. Right. They're not in these things that we hold on to, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yep. But your brain, yes, there are some things, and I think that that is keeping things from your past can be really good until they start to hurt you. And that table was starting to hurt me and holding me back from doing the things that I needed to do. But I think that that's what happens when you have an open wound. It's not, it has to heal. And it has to, it takes time. And it took me, it took me a long time of being uncomfortable with that table here and not being able to like being frustrated with my house being cluttered and all the things and just going, oh, hate this table. Maybe I should look at other tables. And then I started looking at tables, and then I was like, I don't know what I should do, and you know, the uncertainty of everything. And then when you came, it was just like, oh yeah, that's what I need to do, and that's what I need to put over there. Like it was it was like having that other voice of consciousness going, it's okay. Why is it so hard for you to get rid of why why is it hard for you to get rid of this table? Uh yeah, no, he's not in the table. Right. And honestly, I should take the memory of that story and I should put it in my book to remember the argument over the table because the table's not here anymore, but that was the whole crux of it, right? I was hanging on to the no, we're not gonna get a big fancy, expensive table. But I want the table, but it's gonna be perfect in the dining room and it's everything you want. And I think that the fact that it was perfect for his needs is one of the reasons it was perfect for him, and that's why I was hanging on to it. And it was a larger piece than the pictures that I have in my closet, right? So it was harder to incorporate into my new life. The things that are in the closet are just in the closet, and they don't need to come out.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

So, you know, open wounds can absolutely all things can cause open wounds, and you don't recognize them. Do you have anything that's kind of an open wound for you? Um because you're much better than I am about no, it's time for this to go. Like you always know when it's time. Like I have a harder time with that, but you are absolutely great at it.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Um you're nicer about it though. Like you put your table in the garage. I would have dragged that table to the curb.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

So you have a little bit of like, like I had more emotional ties to my table. You would have had anger at what the fuck is this still doing in my house?

SPEAKER_03 36:11

No, I I would okay. So um after Evan died, I had a really hard time getting rid of any of his stuff.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

And I can't even imagine what that's like. I can't even imagine, Milani.

Triggers In Media, Sounds, And Smells

SPEAKER_03 36:29

I mean, it's and it's everything like, oh, here's his little sock, or here's his first outfit that he wore home from the hospital, or you know, like all the really sentimental things that you might keep even if your kid didn't die, you know? Right. Their artwork and their papers and their notebooks and all, you know, like I had his backpack from the day that he died, like still intact. I never took it apart until we had a little flooding in our storage closet here, and I had no choice but to get rid of it because it everything in it was destroyed. But um I didn't know what to do with his stuff, and my girlfriends and Dennis said to me, Well, let's just bin it up. We don't have to decide now, let's just put it into bins and we'll figure it out later, right? Yep. Okay. Dennis was so good because we moved so many times. Not one single time did Dennis ever say to me, We need to do something about these bins. We carried those bins from place to place to place, and with each move, I would go through and I would reduce. So it didn't happen overnight, it was over a period of time where I, you know, the number of bins was less, and I was at a point where I was ready to get rid of whatever it was at the time.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

I have one bin left.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Um and it's kind of a combo bin because it has stuff from Nathan Jackson and Evan in it. And those uh maybe I I don't know. I may or may not get rid of it. I don't know. But it's it's just one bin. Yeah. Um and I think because like, what did I do to myself by carrying those bins around and hanging on to them all those years? I I probably like hurt my own heart more than it needed to be already hurting. And so from that, um I didn't want to repeat that with Dennis' stuff. Because you learn that they're not in these things. Right. You know, like they're they're not in a tree, they're not in a shrub, they're not in a plant that somebody gave you when your person died, and you have to keep this plant alive because if the plant dies, they die again too. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Right? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Uh-huh. So interestingly, it seems like unfortunately, your first loss helped you process your second loss better.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Isn't that kind of crazy to say, but yes, it did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um yeah, which it's crazy. It's not something, um it's not something that you want to go through more than once. Uh it's not something you you want to go through once. Um and you know, relatively, you and I are young widows.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Um, and you know, I and it's a topic for another conversation, but I can't imagine going through what we did. My 70s or 80s. Oh how unbearable must that be? We'll add that to the others category because I think like older widows, like it's it's gotta be hard. I I can't even and widowers I can't even imagine.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Like you and I are not at that stage in our life yet, but right. Yeah, I I just can't even imagine. But that table was hurting me. And it needed to go.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

You know, the other thing too is it we we don't change or transform if we feel comfortable with something, right? It's it is we our greatest transformations help when we have our greatest amount of discomfort, right? So yeah, you were had just reached the point where it was.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

It was uncomfortable. It was enough. It absolutely was enough.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Going back to our word from our our first episode, right? It was enough. It was you had gone through enough discomfort to recognize that you needed to do something different. And for somebody else, it's you know, everybody's table is different.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And that also reminds me of every time I have to do something electronic or file taxes, that is an open wound for me too. Yes, that is incredibly uncomfortable. It is not my wheelhouse, it was what I always leaned on him for, and it's those kinds of things that are just uncomfortable and just really kind of tug at that wound.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

I felt like that a lot after Dennis died because I I absolutely resented the fact that I was the decider. Why did I have to make all of the decisions that I used to bounce off of him that we would decide together?

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Yes.

Holding Joy And Grief Together

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Um, yeah. And stuff like doing the taxes, like um Dennis died on April 1st. I would have, oh yeah, there was a lot to do. Having to do the ta I was pissed. I was why? Why am I doing these?

unknown 42:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Uh-huh. Yeah. No, I I totally get that. And I think that it's those kinds of things when we are so uncomfortable that that opens the wounds and it can be objects. It can be things. Mike and I always, and I know this is kind of off, it's not off topic, actually. It is, it's an open wound for me. Mike and I always used to watch Law and Order SVU. And it was always on, it was always on every weekend, right? It was always on the channels. It was, it's on repeat so much, right? I've not seen one episode in five and a half years, and I can't go back to it.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

I love Marishka, I love Ice T. I love Chris Maloney, and I can't fucking watch it.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

It's too hard.

SPEAKER_03 43:05

I get that. I went through the same thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

There are things I can't watch.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

I can't. They're just, it's too, and it's so crazy as to what those things are. But those are actually things that open up that wound.

SPEAKER_03 43:22

Why does it feel like a wound? Is it because it's a reminder of their absence?

SPEAKER_02 43:27

I think it rem I think I consider it a wound because it's it reopens and it's painful.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

And it doesn't matter how far in the recovery process you might be, or how how much healing you've done, or how much you know stronger you are, how you're carrying things. It can happen at any given moment. It's like, oh, everything just the stitches just came right out, and now you're back to square one for a moment in time. Right. And maybe I'm avoidant, but I just don't watch Law and Order SVU anymore. Like I guess it just makes me too uncomfortable. I suppose I could watch it or try to, but I just I get these feelings of no. You know, and it's you know, but it is, it's a wound.

unknown 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

I think I think it's a wound for sure. What other things trigger you like that?

SPEAKER_03 44:23

Um, you know, sometimes we can be out and I can hear not too long, a few months ago, we were out and I heard a kid say, Mom, in the and it sounded like Evan's voice.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

And I I spud my head around like I I swore the kid was there calling me, right? Um you know, so then it's like, oh no, it couldn't have been Evan. Right. Or maybe, or maybe it was if you're woo-woo and you believe in this kind of stuff, you know, I don't know. Um it it could be a song, it could be a smell, it could be a sound. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Yeah. Well, one of my open wounds was I couldn't listen to Taylor Swift.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

For I never even heard folklore or Evermore. The two albums she put out in the pandemic. I didn't hear them when I finally was able to go see the Eros tour. I had no idea what those songs were. Because I couldn't listen to her.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

It was too painful.

SPEAKER_04 45:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

And I'm just very grateful that now I can.

SPEAKER_04 45:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Um, but yeah, I mean, those are things that just they take you back to those moments. And I think that that's, you know, and sometimes they're painful moments because you realize what you've lost. And I think, I think the only thing you can do for an open wound, I think I've been watching too much of the pit, but you have to triage it. You have to triage it, and you have to take care of it. And you have you, you, you have to, you have to patch it up and you have to do what you can to get it to heal. And sometimes those are extraordinary measures, and sometimes they're simple things. And it depends on the trigger, and it depends on where you're at that day, that moment, and that one place in time.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

Mm-hmm. And I think you know, feeling the feels and then being showing yourself more grace and sometimes it's just a matter of like, let me take a step back.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Yeah. And allowing yourself to do that. And and knowing that even five and a half years down the road, things are going to, they're going to trigger and they're going 20 years down the road. You're going to feel it. You're going to feel it. It doesn't go away.

Closing Reflections And Care

SPEAKER_03 46:54

I I don't say that either, like, oh, you're always going to like, you know, especially to our listeners who are in the early stages, like it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

That's a great point.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

I I don't want, I don't want it to feel hopeless, right? Like it's never gonna feel better. Um, because you will eventually. You will feel better, you will feel different. Um, but there will still always be these times where you can you can be transported to the early days where you will be triggered by something with no rhyme or reason, and it will bring back a flood of memories, and you will feel sad because you will miss your person.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Yeah, and I think that's a great point because there is joy in life. There is joy in every day. You have to find it, and you may have to become more intentional about it. But it is one of those things that you can have joy and sadness at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

Both can be true, yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Both both can absolutely be true, and this is a journey. It is an absolute journey. It is not something that is like, well, I'm gonna be over it in a week or a year.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

No, gosh, no. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

It's it's always gonna be with you for the rest of your life because they're going to be with you for the rest of your life, and that's important because that's who you loved. And they were they were your your people, your person, your child, your your mother, your father, your grandparent, your spouse, all of those things. Your friend. That's that's what happens in this journey. And I think that that's one of the reasons why you and I wanted to do this is to show that it's it is a tough journey, but there are glimmers and amazing things that can happen on this journey, positive things that sort of counterbalance some of the bad things. You and I wouldn't, you and I wouldn't be friends if we hadn't lost our husbands.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

No.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

And you are one of the greatest blessings in my life.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

And I love you.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

I love you too. And I think that that's you do have to make a choice to try to find the good. And I think that that's important because but also realize you don't have to do that in the first early days of grief. You're allowed to be so sad.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

I I don't think there's any timeline to it either. Dennis used to say to me, like, I I would say, Why do I still feel sad about that? And he would say, There's no timeline.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

You know, you feel it for as long as you feel it. Maybe you feel it forever.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Right. Right. And I think it's just as time goes on and you're carrying it better because you've gotten a little stronger. Right. That it's, you know, you have to find the joys. And that's what helps kind of close up that wound from time to time. But it's gonna pop open. It's gonna pop open, and it will be when you least expect it. And you and I've talked about this. It's at your lowest lows and your highest highs.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

And it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

And it is okay. It's absolutely okay. And I think that that's I think that's the best place to to leave our listeners today is that whether it's sadness, joy, a glimmer of hope, don't feel hopeless because it it really is, it's it's a journey, and all journeys have ups and downs.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

Twists and turns.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

And we're we're here with you on that journey, and we hope that we hope that maybe this resonated with you. And if you feel supported, if you feel um seen, you know, maybe there's someone in your life that you feel like could could use to hear some of these words. We're we're thinking of you, and we want you um to take care of yourself and to be well. So thank you for listening. Be good to yourselves.